Unfortunately for some, the best of intentions can get tangled by the worst of city hall red tape and regulatory difficulties. They completed the form 4 for Jeff’s gun, the transferring dealer signed it and Jeff was happy that his forms were finally ready to roll to ATF and got ready to head home. You said a mouthful Kevin..! The democrats in Illinois felt exactly the same way about all FFLs and gun stores that Hank The Gun Dealer did about kitchen table FFLs so they created a new state licensing law to shut many of them down by making it too expensive and complicated to do business anymore. The biggest complaint that I hear from customers when transacting with kitchen table FFLs, though, is the lack of time and regular hours they’re available. I'm waiting on the interview call for my 07 currently. In fact, most FFLs in this country are run out of their house! ragedracer1977 Replies: 11 Views: 298 11/5/2020 11:25 PM … Getting to handle some of the coolest new firearms out there is one of my most favorite perks! Agreed, never had a bad experience with an agent. In WA there is no more private sales. My kids like it. Copyright © 1996-2021 AR15.COM LLC. Guess this is why I had a fuzzy notion that kitchen table FFLs were a thing of the past. The dealer riffled through his paperwork and eventually found the form 3. Some readers will stand up and shout, “Of course Hank is going to say having a kitchen table FFL is a bad idea. Let’s start with what it means. Maybe if more LGSs didn’t have employees that act like douche bags, charged reasonable prices, and listened to their customers instead of treating them like potential thieves, more people would shop at the LGS and there wouldn’t be a need for KTFFLs? Based on the authors logic, we shouldnt have gun stores and manufacturers, because of Red Jacket Firearms and their white trash, incestuous, rapist owner, Will Hayden. it means I took a year of classes and got a “certificate” proving I’m not just OJT trained. You speak a large truth. I hope Hank sees some of these comments and takes note. Do I have 13 years experience… well, yea, plus some… I am also surrounded by “kitchen table” FFL license holders who are managing just fine without this guys smug attitude. Afraid someone is going to cut you out of your markup…??? Haha…. I recently opened up my home-based FFL business to replace a gentleman in my neighborhood that recently retired. No 4473s, background checks, or commercial location headaches. Then there are the ones that will sell you a set of tires when all you needed was an oil change! Of course Hank is going to say having a kitchen table FFL is a bad idea. He stormed off in a huff and never returned. My gunsmithing/transfer is only word of mouth at this time which may make it a bit easier for me, but at the same time, let customers know up front what my requirements are of not only them, but also me prior to them purchasing a firearm. From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm. Every state, county and city are different. So just watch your butt and do your due diligence. Been thinking about your next firearm purchase? The ATF eventually pulled his license after they found out that he wasn’t running background checks on any of the items that he had sold. The increase in … That last part kills me Hansaneffingiddiot . The Class II FFL is a real fun one. I havent had any issuses with them. He knocked on the door and the fellow who answered responded as if it wasn’t anything unusual to have someone show up uninvited at 7 AM to ask about paperwork for their machine gun. The guy I have gone through a couple times is a local police officer. Bad sign number two was that he hadn’t gotten his Form 4’s from his dealer. This FFL Kit Works in ALL States. ), but now I’ve got a friend who’s got one – sometimes just as fun! Records must be kept, just like a normal FFL (but you can destroy them when you surrender your C&R license. Knowing that the man holding onto his gun was clueless, Jeff asked him if he knew what to do when the ATF eventually approved the paperwork. They do check that you know what you’re doing as far as I know. However, it also allows the manufacture of full … I am in no way proposing more government regulation, but there has got to be a better way. Including explosive licenses. I’m kinda jaded on the gun biz, having been behind the counter of 3 establishments. All Rights Reserved. The ATF in my case was the easiest part, It was more of a education then an inspection. The bad news for our gun dealers? You’re absolutely right! This article is garbage.. Some of the best Gunsmiths I’ve known treat their customers like $#it and act as if their doing their customers a favor to take their money. There is not that much work involved and processing the 4473 takes just minutes of our time! Locally we had one fellow who had decided that expensive silencers were a waste of money and decided that he had better technical knowledge and engineering expertise than Todd Magee at Dead Air and Mike Smith at AAC/Remington. I believe I would rather have a paper ffl. All through this series, it’s my intention to get and exemplify the complete procedure of obtaining a home-based FFL. CLICK HERE to Learn How to Get a Home-Based FFL. The better way is to end the NFA (and while we’re at it, all the other red tape associated with owning and running a small business in this country). FFL123.com owner, Brandon Maddox, interviewed live in a teleconference on how to get an FFL license. Thankfully my Inlaws stay with us in the winter and my wife works from home Fridays. Jeff was his first transfer and the FFL had no idea how the process worked. Home » Our Blog » Class 3 License – SOT Dealer. Good management is good management regardless. Thanks Rock River and Springfield Armory. Some will be ‘one off’s’ (usually fabricated by ourselves hence the need for the lathe and milling machine) that were needed to do that job you might come across once in a blue moon! They have regular jobs and aren’t home all day. Sadly, gun stores in general are a huge disappointment, but I can understand the frustration of the salespeople. I was browsing Facebook and saw him post a small blurb about his quest while I was in Las Vegas for SHOT Show. “there was also this:” Most people don’t really want to run a business, so that’s the first thing the ATF typically asks. He’s been building F class guns for 35 years and now he wants to do it for money. My business has pretty much run the same as yours Ample_Arms… My customers like being able to sit down, relax, and chew the fat a bit while filling out the 4473 and I get to meet some interesting and cool people. Let’s start with the basics. Gunslinger808 Site Moderator Posts: 353 Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 12:58 am Location: Florence. His club told him no fee, no shoot and wouldn’t offer his membership until he did. A fart is a breath of fresh air compared to Firearms Concierge. Yeah, it is all about discouraging on line purchases. I suggested that he call local law enforcement before knocking on a stranger’s door. The FFL application and approval process is the same for a commercial location, although you can just skip a few sections within our guides if you have a commercial location. Is that issued by the same governing body that ordained all these “Master Gunsmiths” I’ve met over my career as a “plain-old gunsmith”? d16man. The agent arrived to perform the site inspection about a month later and we spent over three hours going over EVERYTHING! Way out of my price range (I got kids, man! You can also drill down to search for FFLs who hold a Special Occupational Tax (SOT) permit. With the guide’s assistance, I hope to write on the following: 1. Read my response again and then read it again! He’s written several others, all informative and friendly in tone. He was doing 20-40 transfers per month, plus the occasional special order. As required by law, the FFLC will then conduct an electronic background check on all the Responsible Persons you have identified on your application. In our instant gratification society, this is less of a selling point all the time. ‘FC’ also laid down some cold truths, and his delivery style (highly embellished) raised some (fuck, *lots* of!) “”To prosecute a dealer, you’d have to show they were KNOWINGLY making illegal sales”, Assistant U.S. Attorney Joel Violant. Was basically calling out “kitchen FFL’s” What the hell did you expect to happen? Updated list of Distributors that work with Home based FFL? For example. He decided to fill out the forms himself and send them to the FFL for him to sign and then get them shipped to ATF’s NFA branch for approval. I’m not sure why so many people are offended/angered by this article. Im a Kitchen Counter FFL (with SOT), though most business is done in the game room… So a Pool Table FFL? You think 13 years in the industry means you know everything. This FFL Kit Works in ALL States. Location: Pasco Washington Joined: Fri Nov 9, 2018 Posts: 194 Real Name: Scott Home based FFL sot course. To save others the trouble, below is the results of my searching. Everything else from this site goes SPAM. I love guns pure and simple! – and after the third or fourth time Jeff was fed up. I got my first FFL decades before you did – probably before you were ever even able to buy a gun let alone advise anyone about the nuances of guns or the law. Check. All kitchen table dealers are idiots like the one bad apple in your example. $10 where I live if they did not sell it to you, none if they did. So his buddy who bought an expensive machine gun (redundant) decided that instead of getting a C&R FFL, he would minimize his interaction with the ATF by going to a “kitchen table” FFL 3.5 hours away?!? ragedracer1977. It’s win-win. And hours? ATF sorts out one from the other. The man was telling a story about a nightmare experience not how all home based FLL Dealers weren’t as smart as him.I personally think it was informative but my question is about getting a C&R Liscence.Is it as much of a pain in the Ass as the FFL.My wife and I are retired and would like to make some extra money. Generally, you have to meet the following criteria before even thinking about applying for a Texas FFL. I’m not saying that all kitchen table FFLs are like this – some of them are very good, some not so much. I remember reading reports about 20 years ago from the ATF that as much a 40% of crime guns came direct from FFL run running. Arriving at his destination before daybreak, he sat at the edge of the driveway and called the local law enforcement officials who STRONGLY suggested that he wait until the sun came up before banging on the door. Things then went downhill in a hurry. OK, so I am a home-based FFL/SOT who is moving to a new home. Over the past 5 years, I’ve gotten the reputation for being the cheapest transfer agent in the Middle Georgia area and have processed thousands of firearm transfers! Not sure how this turned into a whole article knocking the entire concept…. There are certainly good ones out there. Along the same lines, in the case of the FFL having an SOT, what would happen with SBRs, suppressors, etc if the FFL is setup as an LLC vs a sole proprietorship? It sounds like a good idea to me based on what could possibly happen in the very near future in this country. Plus here in California, we are not allowed NFA items, so that is not an issue. Your local home based FFL and Class 3 SOT for all your firearm needs. Most class II SOT’s make silencers, short barrel rifles and shotguns, and destructive devices – things that can still be registered and sold. What you need to be a federal firearms licensee is 100% compliance with the Gun Control Act of 1968, the National Firearms Act of 1934, state level regulations, local level regulations…all while you run a business. Some customers feel more comfortable leaving their firearms with me knowing I’m not simply calling myself a gunsmith but actually got some training…. Every single one of these documents was a different federal license. No customers at my house, no issues with my local zoning commissioner. Jeff was wondering if this guy was still alive. If so, what are we to really learn from the posted article? The only issue is the currently pending bill that will ban table top FFLs and impose burdensome and oppressive video monitoring and record keeping on the regular stores. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/why-a-kitchen-table-ffl-is-a-bad-idea THIS is the reality. Brick and mortar is old fashioned, and becoming the dinosaur of the industry. Yes, it is a minimum of knowledge, but it isn’t without any guidance. True, not being a brick and mortar store has it’s disadvantages, but, the advantage is building a closer relationship with my customers and building a solid customer base. He would take orders during lunch, and when the gun arrived, you would visit him, do the paperwork, and leave with your gun. I follow the regulations as I dont need any trouble. Get your FFL, make some money, use said money to buy more guns. Jeff educated the dealer as to who would be getting the final paperwork and has been regularly checking in with ATF ever since to see if any of his documents require corrective action. Didn’t take any of it as down-talking. Twice. …sounds like “Hank the Gun Dealer” just wants to scare away the competition…. Here at TTAG, we get lots of questions from our readers about a variety of gun-related and regulatory topics. I liked this bit: “There is no IQ or proficiency test to be a FFL, but after hearing this story, maybe there should be. I am in no way proposing more government regulation, but there has got to be a better way. 3) Submit FFL app 4) Run a add in your local paper with your DBA info to fulfill the Dba requirements, recieve notarized proof of ad. Jeff took the lead with the selling party and got the out-of-state dealer all the paperwork they needed and got the transfer rolling. I know a number of folks who started a firearm business from their kitchen table or out of their garage and have gone on to be good purveyors. Right on Tom… I was just about to write a slightly toned back version of what you wrote. Required fields are marked *. Submit to random, unannounced inspections by any law enforcement agency or the Illinois State Police. No zoning in my village, no business license or other BS to deal with. “there was this: https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/06/foghorn/death-kitchen-counter-ffl-no-new-licenses-distributors-stop-shipping/”. He kinda got quickly lumped in with Firearm Concierge, unfortunately. Thanx. Of course where I happen to live, the serious LGS operators have figured out that they can’t stay in business by gouging customers too badly because two of the major online dealers are located within comfortable driving distance — one is 40 minutes from me and the larger better known one is about 90 minutes from me. Hank makes some valid points but no one can see them. 5) Contact zoning and get a letter of authorization to have a home based FFL, even though the atf will contact them anyway Yes you must be in buisness to fulfill the FFL requirements. LOL, Go to hell Gunner! In addition, my ATF field office has always been very friendly and helpful. (This was after I was long gone, but it was *all* the talk of the other local shops, and knowing who it was that did the mouthing off, not surprising in the least. Exotic devices have exotic problems. One of my customers, Jeff, had a fairly horrific story to share about a kitchen table FFL he dealt with. Oh and I agree, the consensus that the author is an arrogant elitist @$$hole is spot on. I tried to help him find someone near him who would do the transfer, but in his area there were no licensees who could handle it. I guess that wouldn’t have supported your asinine premise that home based businesses are bad. Requirement that licensees make a photocopy of ID for each firearm transfer. What we are: A home based FFL and SOT Class 2 and 3 firearms business located near Wheeling in Triadelphia, West Virginia. Implementation of electronic-based record keeping system by 2020. The story about the machine gun has been simplified considerably. Mark N. Thanks for sharing. For that five to ten minutes of work most FFLs around here charge $25 — a few say they charge $50 but the ones who say that simply don’t want to do transfers at all but might end up doing one or two transfers a year for people who didn’t think to call around. What happened next is something straight out of a Hollywood writers room. Be a US citizen or legal permanent resident. Make your check out to the Illinois State Police. The more I read, the more pissed off I got! Ted, if you go to a true Gunsmiths shop, you ‘should’ find more than just a lathe, milling machine, and a drill press… LoL. It allows you to manufacture NFA items. 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